In this episode of About Podcasting, we dive deep into the world of audio storytelling with Nick Dunkerley of Hindenburg. We explore the magic of audio, the importance of storytelling, and the nuances of audio quality. Nick shares his journey from working in broadcast radio to founding Hindenburg, a tool designed to make audio editing more accessible and effortless for storytellers. We discuss the challenges and opportunities in the podcasting industry, the impact of AI on media, and the importance of maintaining objectivity in journalism. Nick also recounts his experiences in Zambia, helping to build community radio stations and the lessons learned from those projects. This episode is packed with insights for anyone interested in podcasting, audio production, and the future of media.
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[00:00:00]
Nick Dunkerley:
And for that, they just told me stories. And they could tell amazing stories, and everyone had these amazing stories. And they were just so good at it. So I thought, well, what we need to do is we need to build a radio station that actually supports talk radio. Not just having someone chatting, but actually supporting, storytelling.
[00:00:24] AI voice:
Welcome to About Podcasting, a show for podcasters. We talk about podcasting practices, tools, successes, and failures mixed with interviews and music. Hosted on pothome.fm, the most modern podcast hosting platform.
[00:00:57] Barry Luijbregts:
Welcome to another episode of about podcasting. And this is another interview episode. And in this episode, I speak with Nick Dunkerley of Hindenburg. We talk about a lot of things, also including Hindenburg, but that comes later in the, in our conversation. We talk about, audio, the magic of audio, the magic of storytelling, magic of audio quality, radio, interviews, AI even, and a lot more. Now I've edited this episode in Hindenburg itself, and I've tried to make this a beautiful production, including some lovely background sounds when Nick tells his stories, which he is very good at.
So we'll dive in immediately and enjoy.
[00:01:48] Nick Dunkerley:
And You know, what I wanna do is I'm actually gonna record it myself in the background Sure. Just to be on the safe side. I just fortunately, I got a really good door for that. Yeah. Okay. There we go. I can see myself there, and
[00:02:04] Barry Luijbregts:
we are rec Excellent. I guess that is the, I, I do that too. I guess that's probably the mistrust of these online tools. Right? So we're using SquadCast now and there's Teams and there's lots of others like these. And sometimes even though they're made for it, it just doesn't work. Not as well as, like, recording,
[00:02:24] Nick Dunkerley:
on your computer. Right? Exactly. That's the joy of online. I was actually speaking to a customer the other day, and his setup was I think it was SquadCast. He was recording things on. And then he had Hintberg running recording, as well. Andy had his RODE, caster,
[00:02:39] Barry Luijbregts:
recording on an SD card as well. Just to be on the safe side. Yeah. Just to be on the safe side and just to get the best audio quality. Right? But okay. Well, cool. So, again, very my very nice to meet you. You know, I'm just very interested in,
[00:02:56] Nick Dunkerley:
in people that are in the podcasting and or audio space in general. Yeah. You're new to the area. I was actually Oh, they are. Well, you're new as a, playing in the field, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. But, I assume that you've been, an avid podcast listener for
[00:03:13] Barry Luijbregts:
years. Many, many years. Yeah. I I love, listening to podcasts. I love listening to,
[00:03:19] Nick Dunkerley:
audiobooks as well. Mhmm. Anything audio, really.
[00:03:22] Barry Luijbregts:
I I just like to use that to learn, lots to be entertained, listen to, adventures and stuff. I listen to lots of fantasy, audiobooks, things like that. I just like it. I just like the format. There's something magical about, voice and audio,
[00:03:40] Nick Dunkerley:
about humans speaking somehow. Sure. And it's it's it's amazing what you can do with just a few words. It's saying, we're now on the dark side of the moon, and you're there. You know? The, the effects budget is really low.
[00:03:54] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah. And you get this connection with humans. If you listen to a podcast where, like, 2 people are talking or more people are talking, just get this connection that you're there or something and that you're
[00:04:06] Nick Dunkerley:
Yeah. They're banging in your head. Yeah. Yeah. We're probably gonna get into video and stuff because that takes away from that experience, I feel personally. So moving podcast to a visual media is, is not necessarily an advantage. I understand it from many other points of view where, you know, when it comes to, searchability and what have you being on these platforms, but from a pure point of view of what is the audio media really good at, yeah, obviously, that's audio.
[00:04:40] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. What do you think that is? Why does video take away from that and not add a little bit or or a lot to it?
[00:04:47] Nick Dunkerley:
Is it in the I think it's in the as you were saying before, you you imagine people in your head. And if you're reading a book, for instance, you immediately create these characters basically based on a prettier version of yourself in the book. There was they they live in your head. And in the same way with audio stories, we that's that's the thing about audio. We identify with it. We make it a part of ourselves because we internalize it in a way. And that we cannot do. It's the same way as you see an adaption of your favorite book. You're just gonna go, uh-huh. Oh, this is so disappointing. And no matter how good they make it, you know, it could be Lord of the Rings, whatever. They spent the most amount of money in the entire world and reproducing it. It's not gonna be as good as the movie you had in your head.
And I think it's the same way with, with podcasts. You you really want if you want that intimacy of of being a part of the conversation or being a part of a story or being swept into a story, you know, the image, they just distract from that.
[00:05:59] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. It kinda breaks the spell, right, when you see what people are actually look like.
[00:06:05] Nick Dunkerley:
Yeah. You don't wanna meet your heroes, that kind of thing.
[00:06:09] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. That type of stuff. But sometimes it also adds a little bit of context, right, because video visuals have a lot of information to it. So if you're listening to, I don't know, an interview of 3 hours, and sometimes you you look at the video just to glance. Hey. What what's this guy? What's his facial expression, for instance? Something like that.
[00:06:29] Nick Dunkerley:
For that, yes. Sure. It it it can be beneficial, but you might as well just imagine it. What you can do with video, obviously, is actually have an overlay of information. So you, you know, show graphics and what have you. But to be honest, then you're no longer in the audio business. Yeah. Then you're just in the really crap television business.
[00:06:53] Barry Luijbregts:
That's it. Yeah. That's a good point. So so what brought you to, the world of audio and podcasting?
[00:07:00] Nick Dunkerley:
Well, I have a, a radio background, as you might imagine. I'm a bit fierce on the whole radio thing. I come from, broadcast radio. Okay. So here in in Denmark, you're you're from Netherlands. So you still have national radio. I can't really remember the name of it. It's a bit embarrassing.
[00:07:19] Barry Luijbregts:
But then You're a national radio station. We we have several, actually, state owned stuff. Oh, you do? Yeah. Different brands, but all the same same thing, basically. So we have, B and Air, B and Air. Mhmm. NOS, also does radio still, and a couple others, I think, you know, for radio 1, radio 2, which are Allstate owned. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing.
[00:07:44] Nick Dunkerley:
You you cherish that. You don't have that at all anymore? Yes. We do. We we still have it, but it's just one of those areas that we keep cutting back on, which is it's a shame. But my own background that, you know, I did public radio, and I did talk radio. And not talk radio is like in the traditional American sense of talk radio where you just have talking heads. But we actually then produced features, documentaries, the whole idea of a montage basically came out of, or which is Danish National Broadcasting. So the the approach to storytelling is well, actually, not just storytelling, to be honest. It was more the journalistic approach to telling a story, or highlighting a subject, which is really the the point, at least from my point of view, of what, what journalists should be doing is finding something interesting in the world and say, oh god. That was really weird or interesting or fascinating, whatever, and then making a story out of that, so I, the listener, understands why that is fascinating, why it's interesting, why I have to know this about the world so I better can understand the world.
And that takes a lot more than just having 2 people having a chat. Because interviews are fine, but they don't really put anything into context, so to speak. You need the journalists to be the the one that guides you. You need to have that voice of God saying, I'm gonna hold your hand, and I'll I'll take you through this story. And at the end of it, you will understand why this is important. So that that is a slightly different tradition because we typically think that audio is audio, and people talking are people talking. But that it's that's oversimplifying what it is that audio narratives are. That is just having talking heads, what we're doing right now is fine, but it's it's not the end of what audio can do. Audio can do so much more. And I had to be honest well, again, I have to say this coming from a public radio background.
I think that, maybe audio is the most important media that we have from a society point of view, because this we need to have a media again so people can understand their and I'm translating from Danish because, you know, I'm actually Danish. Translating the the times that we're living so we understand it. So we we could probably go on later in this interview about AI and what have you. And we could, if it was just like a chat that we were having, we could be fascinated by AI and talk about new things that are going on there and what new features are out there and what have you. But that's not really the the the job of the journalist. The job of a journalist is to put it into some kind of a context. What does that this actually mean for our society?
What does this mean if we we look ahead? What does this you know? So the meaning of things, I think that we have to cherish, and that takes time and money, to be honest, to produce. And going back to cherish, if you have a public national radio station that is actually it being funded, that is so important. And we could go on about, you know, the whole business of podcasting, how you can monetize it, and what have you. And is this the the podcast winter that we're looking into, and, you know, it might be. K. Or you probably heard that expression as well, the podcast winter is really gloom.
[00:11:35] Barry Luijbregts:
I've heard it a lot, but it's, it's a podcast at winter, so I don't really care about it. There you go. Not really
[00:11:43] Nick Dunkerley:
yeah. It's not really a podcast winter. No. As in, you know, people are still enjoying podcast and Exactly. And I agree. Still listening. Yeah. And I and I I think you're absolutely right putting the ad in there, because where I think that's we have to point our attention when it comes to audio that is, on quality, and and the long tail, of things. Now, anyway, I'm I'm just rambling. You probably have a question.
[00:12:15] Barry Luijbregts:
No. No. This is this is, very good. So, I I totally agree with, the storytelling parts, like, from a journalist perspective, for instance. You take people by the hand. You created the the perspective of what you wanna, talk about. Right? So a news thing, some some actuality, and you try to uncover the truth and show people, look. This is what's going on. This is what you need to know now.
[00:12:44] Nick Dunkerley:
Do you think Actually, there's a you have to put a word in there, the the objective truth. Now we can argue all along about what is objectivity. But, what a journalist's job is to try to be objective. Yes. Try to see things from more points of views. That you don't get in a conversation.
[00:13:05] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah.
[00:13:06] Nick Dunkerley:
And we have to bear these things in in mind. We are talking into an echo chamber if we're only listening to to podcasts where people are opinionated.
[00:13:16] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Yeah. No. Definitely. Because everybody has their own, perspective, and then they just take you into that world without the kind of behavior.
[00:13:26] Nick Dunkerley:
Exactly. And the rabbit holes are oh god. This is gonna could be if we go deep with this one. Going down that rabbit hole, that echo chamber is is really, really frightening from a perspective of a society point of view. Now we're not gonna point fingers at anyone, but there are some countries that we can see this divide, just become increasing all the time between 2 parties that are no longer listening to one another. Just add your own country in there to the mix and, you know, make your own societal debate. But not being able to listen to one another, not being able to see 2, sides of a conversation, not being able to accept others' arguments as valid, that that is toxic.
That really is.
[00:14:18] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. And very bad for society at large and for humanity as a whole. So so do you feel that this, the objectivity, if you just look outside of podcasting and just, at, at media, for instance, is this is this objectivity also going away, not only because funding gets, becomes less for, for instance, national, radio and other stations, but also because there are more and more interests behind these stories, and these stories are paid for by and such and so. So do you feel I I feel that's at least the case, that objectivity is is a rare thing nowadays also in journalism.
[00:14:57] Nick Dunkerley:
It is. You're you're absolutely right, and it is all to do with funding. Yeah. And and this is why we we don't I don't think we appreciate it enough in Europe where we, where we have national broadcaster stations still. There are other places that don't have that luxury where it's it's basically all media consumption is down to commercial, media. And there's nothing wrong with commercial media in itself, but they do have an agenda.
[00:15:27] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Yeah. That that's not a good thing. That's why. Not necessarily. No. No. No. But that's why I think perhaps, in podcasting, that is like a a separate thing. And there you have, let's say that the the citizen journalists, everybody can be a journalist. Right? That doesn't mean that you're a good journalist or any good reporter at all, but that does mean that you can take people, into your perspective. And hopefully you try to be objective as well if you report up on anything, if you create a podcast. But I think the good thing about that is that there is so much out there that you can listen to all of the perspectives if you are, as a listener, are objective enough yourself that you can actually find all these things and and listen to all of the sides. Right? So it is still there.
[00:16:16] Nick Dunkerley:
You can do. Yes. It's possible, but with you. That's true. Yeah. Well, and this is the thing about being forced to have someone who has to be objective for you. That is they will actually go out there and seek the different opinions, and they will, you know, they will present you for the different arguments. And once you've been presented for the, you know, the left and the right or the back and the right, what have you, then it could be up to you to go, no. I'm not gonna change my mind, but maybe you will actually change my mind. Or at least you'll have an understanding of what's going on on the other side. You're not just demonizing what's going on.
But if you can choose, and I'm really torn in this one because I love the idea of that anyone can be able to, transmit, which is really what podcasting is. We've given everyone a transmitter, and that is a democratic tool that is absolutely fabulous. Now we should never go back from that. But that said, then anyone can actually say something. And is that necessarily what you want? No. I'm not saying that. But you you, obviously, everyone should be able to actually say something, but it it does get muddled. No one is accountable for what they're saying. And this is the thing that you will find with, you know, public radio stations or television sites. They are actually accountable for what is being broadcast.
[00:17:55] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. And that's a very good point. And then you get all these, well, these, little worlds and these bubbles where people, get sucked into, either way. And that's, that's never a good thing. But it's hard to stay objective. There's so much stuff out there. And nowadays, especially with, like you already said, AI stuff, you know, we need to just talk about it for a little bit. You're gone. There's just so much stuff. Right? So for instance, for this podcast, I use a little AI voice from, 11labs.comore.io. I don't I'm not sure, to say, hey. Welcome to About Podcasting.
Go here and check it out, which is really cool because it sounds absolutely real. Now that's just a voice, and I can make it say anything I want, or I'm sure there's some controls on there. But you can do it with video. You can do it with anything. So it's gonna be so it's already, and it's gonna be more and more difficult to see what is true. And I'm I'm guessing that more and more of extreme content will be out there just to rile people up to, I don't know, put put, the sides against each other to say whatever you want, and this can influence big things like elections.
It can, be very detrimental for society and so on. So we need these objective voices, the real people out there to, you know, tell us what's what's true, which is difficult because what can you believe anymore if if you can't even believe your own ears or eyes?
[00:19:29] Nick Dunkerley:
It's it's a very, very important question. And, I actually think that we might need to, go back to the sources that we trust. Because otherwise, as you were saying, to be honest, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but within the next fortnight, you have absolutely no idea what Yeah. What you're listening to. Is there a person there or not? You have no idea.
[00:19:58] Barry Luijbregts:
No.
[00:20:01] Nick Dunkerley:
And which is, in many way, you know, we shouldn't knock AI because it has huge potential for lifting the lifting us everyone out of, when it comes to the health sector, sector, what have you, he's gonna make huge huge impact on our society in a positive way. Yeah. But at the same time, us from the media as point of view or from the creative point of view, we as you said yourself, we will have no idea what the truth is anymore. So then, obviously, we're gonna come up with some kind of countermeasures. So we will have some kind of watermarking of content and what have you. So and we'll probably, at some point, have a sticker where you can say, I'm a real human, and that kind of thing that you can put on things.
But we're not there at the moment. And whatever, legislation is coming, it's it's always gonna be years too late. In the meantime, what the hell happened to our society? Well, we're gonna find out. We are gonna find out.
[00:21:15] Barry Luijbregts:
Interesting times. That's that's for sure. It is.
[00:21:18] Nick Dunkerley:
And in if we could go the the way that it's it's all doom and gloom, and we're all gonna die, and the the robots are coming. I don't think that's gonna happen. But we will have to adjust to something that we're gonna wake up to something that's completely new, well, if you take a long nap.
[00:21:41] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Well, it's definitely I I find it just very interesting times to be alive. Right? We could also have been alive, I don't know, a couple 100 years ago,
[00:21:51] Nick Dunkerley:
and it might have been, much more boring than this. And smelly. And you would die of in you know, at the age of 35 with bad teeth.
[00:22:02] Barry Luijbregts:
Exactly. So it's good to be alive right now, and we'll see what happens. I'm also positive about the future. And AI obviously helps us in in tooling to make things easier. Right? Yeah.
[00:22:15] Nick Dunkerley:
We we just have to be careful, and we will need to learn to adjust to it. I I I as you, I follow a lot of what's going on on the AI scene. And one of the things that I find really interesting is the the amount of enthusiasm that people have for what's going on. It's like, well, there's this new thing coming out. Woke now actually produced video is absolutely amazing, and it's, like, lifelike. And, you know, this will take over jobs for the and it's like sitting on the branch of a tree just soaring away as quickly as you can while everyone on in the rest of the branch is just going, yeah. It's brilliant. What? No one seems to be the the slice is worried about the, this, but, obviously, that some people are worried about it. But there's there's a lot of enthusiasm.
And, actually, also, when it comes to the podcasting scene, it's like, we just want AI tools. And it's it's not just podcasting, it's also broadcast radio, to be honest. We would just need AI that that can solve all our, problems. We can just lay back, and everything will be sorted out for us. Now sure. But is that necessarily what you want? I I think that for anything to have any kind of value, you have to add just a bit of effort. And we're kind of pulling away from that. We we don't find that we need to put any effort into anything anymore. Everything can just be sold for us. And that seems like a good idea up into a certain point where you're kind of, stepping further and further away from, gravity, so to speak, and just ending up, flows around in space.
That was a bad analogy. Have you I guess everyone's seen the the movie Wall E. Right? Yeah. It's an absolutely amazing movie. And it is really anyone who's interested in AI should really just have a look at Wall E because they are explaining the issue right there. People are just being complacent. They're just sitting in their chairs, and they have everything has been done for them, but they have no purpose anymore. Yeah. They're they're not in touch with anything. And I'm slightly worried that we could get to that point where we just get so enthusiastic about not doing anything that we lose touch with the meaning of purpose.
[00:24:47] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. I think that's probably the the most real thing that could happen and then that could go wrong. And I already thought that when, you know, in in my generation, I didn't grow up with internet, and then we had it when I was a teenager, And then things became so easy, let's say, you could just Google that. You didn't have to remember anything. You could just Google that. Can you remember phone numbers anymore? A couple. From from way back when we had an actual phone. Yeah. The phone number you had as a child. You could probably remember that. Yeah. And of a couple of friends from from that time. But now, you know, there's no need. So Yeah. The the mind also gets trained to not remember, that type of stuff anymore and to not do that work anymore, which is not a good thing. When I think this will obviously become more, like with chat GPT or whatever, you can just look it up, or you can just say, hey, write this for me. I need to write something. Write this for me. No, not in that style. Make it more amusing or whatever.
And so you don't need those skills as well, which I think is frightening.
[00:25:53] Nick Dunkerley:
But, yeah, let's let's just see how it goes. So for instance, in Paul No. No. And is it frightening because what we're saying is, well, yes, we're not just leaving it to AI. Obviously, we'll be editing this. We will have a look at this. We'll look through it and yeah. We've got yeah. May maybe maybe we'll have a look through it. But the thing is that, say for instance, if we just compare it to, to to maps, you could type into, on your maps to just take me to somewhere, and it will it will just follow that map. Yeah. Yeah. You could basically be going anywhere. You have no idea that it's actually gonna take you in the right direction. And if if you have a sense of direction sometimes you do this. Sometimes the maps get gets things wrong, and you go, wait a minute. Why in the hell am I going this way? I should be going, you know, west instead.
And you only can do that if you actually have some prior knowledge. Well, if we, actually, yeah, one of the areas I'm also interested in in is the educational sector, but let's not get into that. But I understand why, teachers are worried about introducing AI. Mhmm. It's it's not that AI in itself is bad, but you you still have to have some base knowledge before you can use these tools. And it's the same with you know, you can create an image. Anyone can create a stunning image now. But is it any good? Is it art? I don't know. It's it it seems like, if an artist used AI, I'm pretty sure that they can make something that is art, that is spectacular, that I would feel for that. Yeah. That make an impression of me. But just saying, make something pretty, and he will do it, definitely, and there's something will come out of it. But does it have any, what's the word we're looking for, essence, any substance?
[00:27:59] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. I and I think that's exactly you, that's exactly it. So when you create something, be it a a podcast, be it an audio story, be it, an image or a picture or painting or whatever you create when you're being creative, I think you're you're channeling something primal that is in connection with nature, with the universe, with whatever you might call it, with the bigger thing that is bigger than us that we're all connected to. And that's how you then instantiate whatever you're making, and that is what we feel when we look at it, when we listen to it, when we consume it. You can feel if it's real or not. And if that essence, like you say, is actually there. And I don't think AI it can it can definitely not do that on its own, but maybe you can use it as a tool. Yeah.
[00:28:50] Nick Dunkerley:
Yeah. But that's the thing. It's an emulation of of contact. I guess it would be like, I just saw a headline today about some young teenage girls having an AI boyfriend. I don't know if you saw that. It's probably nothing new. I'm pretty sure that they've had that in many places in the world already, having AI partners. It would be easier in many ways. Have someone who just agrees with you all the time, say, oh, you look absolutely amazing today, darling. Yeah. But something might be missing. There might be a tiny thing missing there at some point.
[00:29:36] Barry Luijbregts:
The essence of life, is simply missing. And, and, and so we're, we're shooting beyond that. And, so what I was saying for pothome, I'm trying to not interfere with the creation process. I'm just trying to help people with the AI part, with all of the stuff around it, like the stuff that you don't wanna do, like show notes and chapters and all that type of stuff.
[00:29:58] Nick Dunkerley:
But the creation is still your thing, and and that needs to stay like that. Having it as a a a a tool, use it as a tool, that that's great. Just bear in mind that it it is only a tool.
[00:30:14] Barry Luijbregts:
Okay. So from this, let's, pivot into,
[00:30:19] Nick Dunkerley:
into into your tool, Hindi work. Is that necessary?
[00:30:23] Barry Luijbregts:
No. It's have to. We definitely don't have to. But let's, let's talk about it. So how did you get into that, into audio editing and audio quality? Why did you wanna wanna build something like this?
[00:30:36] Nick Dunkerley:
Well, I I I found there was a a need. Now I have to go back a bit. We have to go back to Zambia. Let's imagine that we're now in in Africa. Well, we're in Zambia, and we are actually in a a small town. It's really hot. The set of flies are flying around, and it's a small town called It's it's just by the lake and it's it's really pretty and there's it is a lovely place but they they do not have a lot. And what I was doing there was, I was helping out build a community radio station. And somebody asked me, actually the story behind it, you can always edit this down to about one second. But anyway, the story behind it was, organizations like well, here in Denmark, it's like the NIDA, but otherwise, you'll have, Deutsche Welle. Well, not necessarily Deutsche Welle, but other organizations go into areas to promote different programs. That could be programs on education, on HIV age, or agriculture, that kind of thing. Mhmm. Yep. And the best way, still, not just in African countries, but still, is to actually use audio.
Having a pamphlet is fine, but actually telling a story is much more effective. So what they would typically do with these organizations, they would go into a a region, and then they would use the local radio station, and they would use that to say, well, if you want to improve your harvest next year, maybe you should start planting this way, this way, and this way. So it was storytelling. But in many situations, there wasn't necessarily a radio station in that area. So what they would do then was they they would build 1. Well, at least that was the story. They were building 1. What they really did was they they took a container, a shipping container with equipment in it and placed it in the area, and then they ran up to the highest place that you could find around town, and then they put a transmitter up there or antenna up there. And there you have it, pops your uncle, you have a radio station, and it works.
The problem was that as as long as money was flowing to the project that would typically be a, like, a 2 year project, the radio station would be fine. As soon as the money pulled out, the radio station would die. So the reason why one of these organizations came to me was with the question, why? Why are they dying? Why aren't they using these radio stations? But you know, we gave them them. It's a radio station. They didn't have a radio station. Why don't they use them? So I went out and I actually drove around in the country and that was absolutely amazing. I would love to do that again. If there's anyone out there who needs me for that. Driving just driving around in a 4 by 4 in the dirt roads with potholes on it and Mhmm. Seemingly hot and just visiting the nicest people you can imagine. And them just being all enthusiastic about the community radios. Anyway, back to my radio station.
I had a look at what everything, everything was going on. And also what was going on with these radio stations that were being closed. And I said, well, the issue is that you're building the wrong radio stations. And these organization was like, what do you mean a radio station is a radio station? You know, it's you put some there's audio that comes out. How difficult can it be? Yeah. And it's like, well, no, actually not. Because what you're building is a a music radio station. It's a basically a DJ setup with a transmitter on the roof.
So you've got a couple of CD players, and you've got a microphone, and there you go. It it is radio. Technically speaking, it is radio. It's bit like what I was saying before, you know, 2 people having conversation, that is also talk radio, but it's not the end of that. So I said, yes. Sure. It's a radio station. Fair enough. But they don't care. No one cares about music radio. They care about stories. The way that they communicate, in in internally in these villages is that they have, typically, they will have these town meetings, and they will meet under a kind of a a gazebo. So you have the the town elders sitting in in a circle underneath this gazebo, and they will be debating. And around them, outside of them, you have the rest of the village standing around them in a circle, and basically just pitching in. So, no. That's not true. Whatever. And so they will everyone will be pitching in. The town's elders will be sitting in the middle.
And then they will sort things out, and they will storytelling is the oral storytelling is huge part of of this communication, so if you wanna tell a story. So I found that really, really interesting. And also, just being around people, especially the elders. I was, you know, often I I just pick people up in the car just, because they were just walking, like, for a 100 miles or something like that to get to the shops as I get in the car. And for that they just told me stories. And they could tell amazing stories, and everyone had these amazing stories, and they were just so good at it. So I thought, well, what we need to do is we need to build a radio station that actually supports talk radio.
Not just having someone chatting, but actually supporting storytelling. And my own background from a national broadcasting was exactly that, you know, this is what we did. When we do we're doing features and and and what have you. It was all about the story. So, I said, well, let me just pencil this out. This is what I have in mind. We need to, you know, build this building. It needs to have 2 studios. We have to have a a station manager. There has to be some desks out here where they can work. And on top of that, I want to have a library that has Internet connection.
And they're like, what the hell are you on about? You know, we have a budget for a container. Yeah. Well, I don't know. This is what we need. Why the hell do you need a library? There's well, no one's gonna pop into a radio station, are they? We're not gonna just gonna walk out from the street and say, I've got a brilliant story. Yeah. Yeah. You you need to have a place where people can actually meet and talk about other stuff, and they can go on the Internet and what have you, because you'll be the only Internet spot in town. And I'm like, never thought of that. No. Well, there you go. So we went, along and well, yeah, that's what we did. It was so much fun. Anyway, back to why I forgot the point of the story here, which was software.
Why did we, start the company? As I was, doing this, and this was a lot of fun, I was actually one evening sitting in a small chalet and looking at all the open source software that was out there, like, Aurora and Audacity and what happened, and thinking, this is what we need. I'm I'm gonna give them some computers. We'll have Ubuntu on the computers, and they'll have one of these open source programs, probably Audacity. Yeah. And then they started working with it. Now I'm a sound engineer. Didn't, you know, mention that. I'm a sound engineer. And I was well, actually, not with Audacity. That wasn't too bad, but I would try it out with Aurora as well. I was so frustrated. I could not get the bloody thing to work. And I'm not saying it's a fault. It was open source software, and I was sitting in the middle of nowhere, but I was struggling, as they would say. So I'm struggling.
So, and then suddenly it occurred to me, I have to see this through the eyes of a storyteller. They have to sit down in front of this piece of software, and they have to start telling a story. I was like, that's never gonna happen. This is never gonna work. This is this is horrible. You know? We we we there's a bottleneck here, we can't get over. And, you know, there was just no way. And I asked around. I asked some of my colleagues. A friend of mine, came down to visit, and he's a he's a sound guy as as well. And we were talking about this, and I said, have you heard of any software that is more simple than this? It has to we have to uphold broadcast standards, but it has to be easier to use. And I said, no.
Why would anyone do that? There's absolutely no market for that whatsoever. And and then the power went out, and we had a drink. And, as we were sitting there in the dark, I said, wait a minute. You do a bit of, coding, don't you? And he was like, yeah. Where are you going with this? So here we are. And it's the 2 of us that once was sitting there in the dark, chatting about how we could save the world in our own little way. And, yeah, we came up with this one.
[00:40:08] Barry Luijbregts:
Excellent. Yeah. That that's that's a really good story. So I hope that everybody, close their eyes and also imagine it along with the scenery because it's really vivid. But, yeah, that that's very important to have a, very user friendly software that people can just use, without having to be a sound engineer or or a technical expert or like that, which you see a lot,
[00:40:33] Nick Dunkerley:
of that especially There is. But it's not a fault of the other software, If you are into engineering, for instance, if you're a musician, you'll use Appleton or Logic or something like that because you understand the interface. You understand that need. If you're doing, movies, you'll definitely use, Pro Tools if you're gonna do that kind of thing because you understand it. And the reason you understand it is basically nothing much has happened since the late nineties when we went from analog to digital. You were around at the time. Yeah. So what we did when we went to digital was we had a look at the analog world and said, well, let's just do that in a computer.
It's gonna be brilliant. So if you've ever been into a, a music studio, or maybe you've never actually been there, but in your mind's eye, you've definitely been there. There's this huge sound desk in front of you. There's a really comfy chair where some bloke called Barry is sitting, and then he's got, like, racks of, of, of gear all around him. And, then there's a small window, and you can look into the other side where the musicians will be playing as we've all got that image in your head. That's fine. So we basically we we we we took that, and we sketched it down on the computer and said, here you go. That hey. There's your program. So if you look at Pro Tools, for instance, that's basically just a one to one replication of a studio, a music studio. It's brilliant if you're the one that's actually in the chair who understands it.
The problem was that is Barry the wrong name to use in this No. No. It's totally fine. Scenario. Barry then, then came a a time when actually, Barry, who was a sound engineer, he not only did music, he also did radio production. And, typically, at the time when we were doing radio production, he will be sitting together with Laura, who is a journalist, and she would she loved radio. She absolutely loved it. She loved going out there doing interviews. She would do the script and everything. And Barry and Laura were getting into a studio together, and they would create art. Together, they made something that was way bigger than any of them. Not one of them could have done this on their own.
They made something beautiful, And I was a part of that. And to be honest, it still gives me shivers down my spine when I think about it, because it was an amazing experience to be part of something that is larger than yourself. If you've ever been in a band, for instance, you know that feeling. You can play the guitar all you like, but you never get the feeling of playing that one chord on the guitar and the rest of the band just comes in at the same time. That's that's amazing. If you've never tried it, go ahead and try it. Anyway, so back to the studio, back to the music studio.
So what happened in the nineties was that from a management point of view, people found that it was way cheaper to have Laura sit at the the controls herself and do her own editing, and Barry was fired. So the music studio, let's go back to the music studio, was now empty. In comes Laura and sits down in the chair. So she looks around at the sound desk and all the the effects and what have you, and she is petrified. And someone closes the door. And she's just there alone in the dark looking at the sound desk going, what the hell am I gonna do now?
So that meant she went from being really enthusiastic about audio and storytelling and what she could do with it. And she could in her mind's eye, she would just go, okay. Let's start this story out with the the waves are coming in, and I'll come over in with a a voice over. And then we'll have the first part of the interview, and we'll have some music slowly building up from under the all that died instantly. In that second, she sat down in front of the sound disc. She had no idea how to do it herself. Yeah. Too complicated.
Way too complicated. Yeah. So what we've been trying to do, basically, is say to Laura, you're good. You're fine. Don't worry about it. Whatever you have in your head, you can get it out.
[00:45:07] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. And that's great. I've been using it myself as well, Hindenburg. Oh, really? Okay. I've I've used many, many tools. I've also used, the Adobe tool, which to me is not intuitive, but mainly because I don't come from that world of, of that type of controls and UX. So I'm always looking for where's the button for this. But but I like it. It's simple. Hindenburg's simple simple, easy to use, and it does what I needed to do. So, what would you say is the main differentiator besides the easy, UX, the usability for Hindenburg to the others. Right? Because there are others out there as well.
[00:45:52] Nick Dunkerley:
But that's the thing. No. There isn't. There there seriously, there isn't because the differentiator is, okay, if you only look at it this way, they're all doors. Mhmm. They can all record audio. You can all edit audio. They all do the same thing. True. In that case, they are all the same. But as you were pointing out, it's it's the UX that's different. We've made this specifically for Laura. She needs to be a we're we're addressing her issues. So for instance, we know what her output is gonna be. When we go in, you've since you've played around with it, you know that we have, like, automated levels and that kind of thing. And, you know, everyone nowadays is talking about automated levels, but we were actually the first to introduce it. We were the first to talk about loudness. It's not because loudness is in itself interesting or automated levels for that point is is interesting.
The reason why we have this technology is because we knew that Laura had no idea how to set a level. For instance, if you if you go back to broadcast radio, we had a handbook in the day that we gave to to freelance journalists and said, in in the handbook, it said, if you're doing an interview, your, levels should peak at minus 9 on a QPPM meter. Right. Yeah. So now do you know? Loa has no idea what the hell we had just said. It was just an absolutely meaningless sentence. But if you drag any piece of narration into Hindenburg you try it next time you have a look. Have the automated levels do their little thing. Have a look at the QPPM meter, which is, you know, just that meter you see at the bottom. But the reason it's a QPPM meter is because that is the same meter you will find in any broadcast radio station or television station in the entire Europe.
That's why we had exactly that meter, not just any odd meter. It had to be the right meter for the right job. Okay. So she will be able to see, okay. It's true. It's actually peaking at minus 9 on my QPPM meter. So someone is gonna be very happy when I'm done with this. Yeah. And I don't need to worry about it. And the same thing, you could, if you add some music to it, you could say, well, music is music. No. It's not. It's is is this a question of how compressed is it? Is it, is it music produced, like, yesterday, then it will be compressed the hell out of it? Is it produced in the nineties, Less compression. Is it classical music? No compression whatsoever.
Your dynamic range is gonna be all over the place, which means you have to set your levels accordingly. So and you can't even use a rule of thumb. You you might get, well, it's music, set it to minus 15 on a QPPA meter, and you're done. Yes. If it was a specific kind of pop music, if you did the same with classical music, you won't be able to hear anything except the, you know, the horn section.
[00:48:53] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Exactly. And so
[00:48:56] Nick Dunkerley:
just to say that we can do that because we know what your output is gonna be. You are gonna be producing some kind of radio segment, and it has to have this kind of overall quality. Can you imagine that kind of arrogance in another program like Pro Tools or Ableton? Will they go, you know what? Your drums should be higher. People will be furious. You know? We can lower the bass for you because, you know, it might be better. No one would go along with that because these people know what they want. So they need to be able to tweak and adjust and fiddle and play around and what have you. Our users hate that kind of thing. They just want to be able to think of the story.
So they need to throw stuff in there and focus. And and that said, by the way, another thing, when people are forced to do both storytelling and engineering, that's next to impossible. You can't think of 2 things at the same time. You can either focus on on the story or you can focus on mixing. You can't do both. Yeah. I've never met anyone who can do both at the same time. You can go back and forth, then you can do oh, I'll do my mix, then I'll go back and listen to, does this story work? And then I'll do more you know? So you're constantly shifting gears. The issue was when they were working in other tools, they were being constantly stopped by other things that they had to focus on.
So for instance, I have to do a recording, then you so you try to add some some audio. Then you ask, well, is this stereo mono? It's like, I I don't know. Is and constantly, they will be faced with, questions that they didn't know the answer to, that they had to go out and find answers to. And here, they can just focus on their main thing. So, okay, I've got an interview. Let's just drag it in. Let's start finding sound bites. Great. I'll find some sound bites. And then I need to be able to organize my sound bites. Now we just stop there for a second. We have a clipboard, for instance, where you can just organize your sound bites. You just take a sound bite, which is, which you you like. You have no idea when you're gonna use it, but, you know, you will use it at some point. Then you just put it into your clipboard saying, alright. I'll get back to you later.
No other door has that. You could argue that, well, Pro Tools has this kind of clip thing where you can see every single clip that you've done. Sure. But it's that's not it's not the same thing. It's it's not the same use case. You can't organize it. With us, you can rename them. You can always organize them in groups. You can have favorites that you use from story to story. We even have a sound library in there where because, you know, why would you use that in another tool? Who needs, I don't know, a city sound or waves or something like that, when you're doing your music production? It doesn't make any sense. But for us, it makes perfect sense.
So it it's a question of having the the right tool for the right job. Yes. You could argue, as you were saying, it's an old you know, it's a door. They're all doors, but they're really not.
[00:52:21] Barry Luijbregts:
No. In my head, I was comparing it to, other tools like, Descript, for instance. But, the the script or descript or whatever you, you call it, that is much broader. They don't have such a clear, my assumption here, view of who their users are. Their users, anybody that creates anything, video, audio, whatever. I think they're trying to go for everyone,
[00:52:49] Nick Dunkerley:
within the funnel, which is, which which is fine. They they started out by targeting, audio podcast, but it very soon became clear that they were going for the video market. It's a much larger market in the video market. And I fully understand that from an economic point of view. They had a lot of money that I had to recoup. Now let's be honest, podcasters are dirt poor. You know, they they haven't done that. Yeah. That's true. This is not an area where you drive around in in, like, in limousines and Ferraris. So, for them to be able to make that kind of large scale business, they had to go after the large scale market, which was definitely the video market.
[00:53:33] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. So so it's very good that you, you know, you know exactly who you're creating this for, and it's very targeted use case, which is great. Very niche. Yeah. That's why my kids are very skinny. So in this niche market, are you still
[00:53:49] Nick Dunkerley:
actively creating new features? Do you find a need for new things that are not there yet in the product? Yeah. It it it moves all the time, which is which is amazing. It's like a a moving target. One of the things that are interesting is we started this, like, 15 years ago. And, you know, you should we should have this conversation another 15 years, and you can look at your business and say, well, when I started out Yes. This was the need, and I had all the features that I needed. Yes. Now when we started out, we were actually, again, trying to use this for for for radio journalists. But actually, to go back to the Africa, the original idea was make it for rural reporters in developing countries and just give it to them for free. As it turned out, that was a horrible business idea.
So, as we started developing it, I am I I was back in Denmark. That's another long story. But, then I had some of my old colleagues from the National Broadcasting. I sent it to them. I said, could you, when you find, you know, 5, 10 minutes, just try this out? And it was like the early days. It was in the alpha. It was not even in beta yet. And very, very limited amount of features at the time. We'd only been working on it for a couple of months, and you as a developer know how far you can get within a couple of months. Yeah. Not that far. It will break constant. Yeah.
Anyway, so and we heard nothing back. There was radio silence. Now what was happening? Roll it up. So at some point, I just said, I have to Praveen and I, who is the the the cofounder, and I, we were just sitting there, really just in his living room. We didn't have any office. It was just him and I on each side of the table, and I said I have to call them and hear what's what's going on. They probably just hate it. That's probably why we've haven't heard back. So I called one of my old colleagues. I said, well, time to try it out. He said, yeah. It's really buggy.
I said, yeah. Sure. Yeah. Of course. We know we we know it's buggy, but yeah. Could you make it less buggy? So why are you going on about buggy? Well, I wanna talk about features. No. You need to make it less buggy because we're using it every single day.
[00:56:15] Barry Luijbregts:
Okay. They were using it in production?
[00:56:17] Nick Dunkerley:
Yes. And I was I just put the phone down, and it looks at my it says, shit. We have a problem. It's a good problem to have. It's a good problem to have because at the same time, we just realized we also had a business model. Yeah.
[00:56:33] Barry Luijbregts:
Okay. So how did that evolve into the needs that, your users have now?
[00:56:39] Nick Dunkerley:
Because the whole business has just been, you know, up and down and all over the place. We started out making this for journalists that were working at broadcast radio stations. They had very specific, needs, but they also had a very specific knowledge. We're going back to the knowledge that you come with. They understood what it was they would what they wanted to do. They understood that, the use of a clipboard because they understood that, you know, this is the way that we usually work. We do interviews. We find sound bites. They understood that they needed more than one trap because, you know, obviously, they wanted to mix different sounds together. They understood everything that was in the the UI at the time. But then as time went on, suddenly, podcasting became a thing.
And, you know, I love the idea going back to I love the idea of anyone should be able to, express themselves. But what we found was the issue was they they didn't have that knowledge with them about what the end product should be. Mhmm. So they might have been listening to other podcasts, which typically at that time would then have been either national radio or you'd be listening to stuff like This American Life or Radiolab or these things were the the podcast that came out at the beginning, and later on serial came along. And people were listening to these things and said, yeah. Okay. I wanna do a pod I can do a podcast. It's it's suddenly it's been given to me that I can do that as well. And especially this American life, is is one of example, I was doing a speech in, in Dublin, at a time.
And there there was this, we we were talking about microphones, and there was this guy who was holding this omnidirectional, this very directional, microphone, this long directional microphone, and this really odd angle where he's holding it down at his hip and he was pointing up at me with this. And I was like, what are you doing? Why are you holding your microphone like I said, well, this is what Ira Glass does. Yeah. But he's he's been around for the, like, 40 years of doing broadcast. Right? And it occurred to me that many people were having these misconceptions of how, what radio production was. Mhmm. Yeah. So for instance, again, This American Life, if you never listened to it, it's typically an interview podcast where someone's doing an interview. So I would ask questions, and they will string them together with different stories, but basically just interviews.
And if you just listen to it, it's very fluent. It's just, you know, flows along. And you can say, I can do that. I'll I'll just record someone, and I'll just, you know, cut into the beginning, add to the end, and then I have done my podcast. Not knowing that this America this American Life team had probably spent 6 weeks on this one interview or just this one show. And no one really understood how the sausage was made, when it came to radio production. And if they knew, they would probably never get into it because, to be honest, it's not easy. It might seem easy, but it's not. And, you were saying before about our 80s, just because I said the word easy, and it really triggers me.
What we're doing is not meant to be easy. It's really not the point. You again, it's misunderstanding. Because if you you're under the impression that creating stories is easy, then this misconception, it's not. It it what we're doing is making you more focused. We can make it an effortless experience where you can focus on what you want to do. We want to be take away the distractions. But saying it's easy, we have to be careful with that one because you have to apply effort. Going back to what we're talking about before, you have to apply some effort for anything to have any quality whatsoever.
We're just trying to be more focused. Now I've got my point in my story.
[01:01:10] Barry Luijbregts:
No. I I totally agree. The creation part is very difficult, and it should be because, you want to create some value. Right? And creating value is difficult. But your tool is is making it easier to make it nice. Right? Say more effortless. More effortless. There you go. Okay.
[01:01:29] Nick Dunkerley:
Well, let let us put it this way. I I was just thinking of this the other day. I'd love watching, YouTube clips of car programs, that kind of thing. I'm probably never gonna get a decent car, but here we go. I just so I just watch other people driving around in nice cars. And you can say all cars fulfill the same purpose. You can go down to to the shops and back again in any car. Mhmm. Yeah. It's no difference whatsoever. But it's all depending on how you want to feel about something, the experience of doing something. And when it comes to a Rolls Royce, for instance, you can go down to the shops just as you could in any in Ico or whatever.
But it's the the the feeling of effortlessness, of just getting in there. It just what would they typically say? Just woofs you along. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. And it's kind of that experience that I'm hoping to give as we design it, but also what we the feedback that we get from our users. I was I was talking to some students, at some point that were using it at a university, and they, they had no idea who I was. So they just came out from a, a class where they were doing radio production. So I just asked them, so, so how was the class? It was it was absolutely amazing. You know, radio producing radio is just so much fun, and it's just so easy.
And and I was like, no. It's not. What you just experienced was us making it an effortless experience for you to be able to get into an area that is otherwise really difficult to penetrate. And that was the whole idea of going back to Africa, getting rid of that bottleneck, getting rid of that, that that I called it at the time a technical divide. Right? I might be the only person in the world using that expression, but you get the idea, the technical divide between you and your audience. That was what we were trying to eliminate. So, yes, make it accessible, make it approachable, make it a effortless experience. That is what we're trying to do. But easy, that just sounds like my first Sony. It's like, yeah, you can start out with the cheap and easy one, and then you can move over to a professional tool later on. This is the professional tool. This is where you will end up. If you're if you've got twinkling blue eyes right now thinking, I fucking love audio production. I just get thrills.
I just want to be a part of that. This is where you're gonna end up. This is where all the big guys are. They're working on it right now. But what we're doing is we're making it approachable so you can start if you're, you know, if you're a child in school and you're starting out your podcast production, you can start here, but you'll be working with the same tools that the professionals at NPR or BBC or what have you and Doctor, especially Doctor. All all the features that are produced there are being produced with our tool. It's really not because it's easy.
[01:04:49] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Alright. Well, we won't use that word anymore. Effortless effortless. I like effortless. It's a lovely word, isn't it? It is. It's very and and it, yeah, it hits home. Okay. So we've we've talked about lots of things.
[01:05:04] Nick Dunkerley:
And Oh, good. We talked for a long time. Yeah.
[01:05:07] Barry Luijbregts:
I feel like, we can talk, a lot longer, but let's, I I want to respect, the time of our listeners as well. So, perhaps you can point our listeners to where they should go if they want to try out Hindenburg.
[01:05:23] Nick Dunkerley:
Yes. If they go to our website at hintenburg.com, they can just click on the trial button. They'll get their own 30 day trial, and, yeah, play around with it. It's it's got all the features in there.
[01:05:36] Barry Luijbregts:
There you go. And, obviously, that will also be in the show notes as well if you just forgot what, what Nick just said. Okay. Thank you very much for for talking with me today. Well, thank you. It was fun.
[01:05:50] AI voice:
Thanks for tuning into the show. For more episodes, go to about podcasting dot show, and remember to host your podcast on podhome.fm, the most modern podcast hosting platform.
And for that, they just told me stories. And they could tell amazing stories, and everyone had these amazing stories. And they were just so good at it. So I thought, well, what we need to do is we need to build a radio station that actually supports talk radio. Not just having someone chatting, but actually supporting, storytelling.
[00:00:24] AI voice:
Welcome to About Podcasting, a show for podcasters. We talk about podcasting practices, tools, successes, and failures mixed with interviews and music. Hosted on pothome.fm, the most modern podcast hosting platform.
[00:00:57] Barry Luijbregts:
Welcome to another episode of about podcasting. And this is another interview episode. And in this episode, I speak with Nick Dunkerley of Hindenburg. We talk about a lot of things, also including Hindenburg, but that comes later in the, in our conversation. We talk about, audio, the magic of audio, the magic of storytelling, magic of audio quality, radio, interviews, AI even, and a lot more. Now I've edited this episode in Hindenburg itself, and I've tried to make this a beautiful production, including some lovely background sounds when Nick tells his stories, which he is very good at.
So we'll dive in immediately and enjoy.
[00:01:48] Nick Dunkerley:
And You know, what I wanna do is I'm actually gonna record it myself in the background Sure. Just to be on the safe side. I just fortunately, I got a really good door for that. Yeah. Okay. There we go. I can see myself there, and
[00:02:04] Barry Luijbregts:
we are rec Excellent. I guess that is the, I, I do that too. I guess that's probably the mistrust of these online tools. Right? So we're using SquadCast now and there's Teams and there's lots of others like these. And sometimes even though they're made for it, it just doesn't work. Not as well as, like, recording,
[00:02:24] Nick Dunkerley:
on your computer. Right? Exactly. That's the joy of online. I was actually speaking to a customer the other day, and his setup was I think it was SquadCast. He was recording things on. And then he had Hintberg running recording, as well. Andy had his RODE, caster,
[00:02:39] Barry Luijbregts:
recording on an SD card as well. Just to be on the safe side. Yeah. Just to be on the safe side and just to get the best audio quality. Right? But okay. Well, cool. So, again, very my very nice to meet you. You know, I'm just very interested in,
[00:02:56] Nick Dunkerley:
in people that are in the podcasting and or audio space in general. Yeah. You're new to the area. I was actually Oh, they are. Well, you're new as a, playing in the field, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. But, I assume that you've been, an avid podcast listener for
[00:03:13] Barry Luijbregts:
years. Many, many years. Yeah. I I love, listening to podcasts. I love listening to,
[00:03:19] Nick Dunkerley:
audiobooks as well. Mhmm. Anything audio, really.
[00:03:22] Barry Luijbregts:
I I just like to use that to learn, lots to be entertained, listen to, adventures and stuff. I listen to lots of fantasy, audiobooks, things like that. I just like it. I just like the format. There's something magical about, voice and audio,
[00:03:40] Nick Dunkerley:
about humans speaking somehow. Sure. And it's it's it's amazing what you can do with just a few words. It's saying, we're now on the dark side of the moon, and you're there. You know? The, the effects budget is really low.
[00:03:54] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah. And you get this connection with humans. If you listen to a podcast where, like, 2 people are talking or more people are talking, just get this connection that you're there or something and that you're
[00:04:06] Nick Dunkerley:
Yeah. They're banging in your head. Yeah. Yeah. We're probably gonna get into video and stuff because that takes away from that experience, I feel personally. So moving podcast to a visual media is, is not necessarily an advantage. I understand it from many other points of view where, you know, when it comes to, searchability and what have you being on these platforms, but from a pure point of view of what is the audio media really good at, yeah, obviously, that's audio.
[00:04:40] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. What do you think that is? Why does video take away from that and not add a little bit or or a lot to it?
[00:04:47] Nick Dunkerley:
Is it in the I think it's in the as you were saying before, you you imagine people in your head. And if you're reading a book, for instance, you immediately create these characters basically based on a prettier version of yourself in the book. There was they they live in your head. And in the same way with audio stories, we that's that's the thing about audio. We identify with it. We make it a part of ourselves because we internalize it in a way. And that we cannot do. It's the same way as you see an adaption of your favorite book. You're just gonna go, uh-huh. Oh, this is so disappointing. And no matter how good they make it, you know, it could be Lord of the Rings, whatever. They spent the most amount of money in the entire world and reproducing it. It's not gonna be as good as the movie you had in your head.
And I think it's the same way with, with podcasts. You you really want if you want that intimacy of of being a part of the conversation or being a part of a story or being swept into a story, you know, the image, they just distract from that.
[00:05:59] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. It kinda breaks the spell, right, when you see what people are actually look like.
[00:06:05] Nick Dunkerley:
Yeah. You don't wanna meet your heroes, that kind of thing.
[00:06:09] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. That type of stuff. But sometimes it also adds a little bit of context, right, because video visuals have a lot of information to it. So if you're listening to, I don't know, an interview of 3 hours, and sometimes you you look at the video just to glance. Hey. What what's this guy? What's his facial expression, for instance? Something like that.
[00:06:29] Nick Dunkerley:
For that, yes. Sure. It it it can be beneficial, but you might as well just imagine it. What you can do with video, obviously, is actually have an overlay of information. So you, you know, show graphics and what have you. But to be honest, then you're no longer in the audio business. Yeah. Then you're just in the really crap television business.
[00:06:53] Barry Luijbregts:
That's it. Yeah. That's a good point. So so what brought you to, the world of audio and podcasting?
[00:07:00] Nick Dunkerley:
Well, I have a, a radio background, as you might imagine. I'm a bit fierce on the whole radio thing. I come from, broadcast radio. Okay. So here in in Denmark, you're you're from Netherlands. So you still have national radio. I can't really remember the name of it. It's a bit embarrassing.
[00:07:19] Barry Luijbregts:
But then You're a national radio station. We we have several, actually, state owned stuff. Oh, you do? Yeah. Different brands, but all the same same thing, basically. So we have, B and Air, B and Air. Mhmm. NOS, also does radio still, and a couple others, I think, you know, for radio 1, radio 2, which are Allstate owned. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing.
[00:07:44] Nick Dunkerley:
You you cherish that. You don't have that at all anymore? Yes. We do. We we still have it, but it's just one of those areas that we keep cutting back on, which is it's a shame. But my own background that, you know, I did public radio, and I did talk radio. And not talk radio is like in the traditional American sense of talk radio where you just have talking heads. But we actually then produced features, documentaries, the whole idea of a montage basically came out of, or which is Danish National Broadcasting. So the the approach to storytelling is well, actually, not just storytelling, to be honest. It was more the journalistic approach to telling a story, or highlighting a subject, which is really the the point, at least from my point of view, of what, what journalists should be doing is finding something interesting in the world and say, oh god. That was really weird or interesting or fascinating, whatever, and then making a story out of that, so I, the listener, understands why that is fascinating, why it's interesting, why I have to know this about the world so I better can understand the world.
And that takes a lot more than just having 2 people having a chat. Because interviews are fine, but they don't really put anything into context, so to speak. You need the journalists to be the the one that guides you. You need to have that voice of God saying, I'm gonna hold your hand, and I'll I'll take you through this story. And at the end of it, you will understand why this is important. So that that is a slightly different tradition because we typically think that audio is audio, and people talking are people talking. But that it's that's oversimplifying what it is that audio narratives are. That is just having talking heads, what we're doing right now is fine, but it's it's not the end of what audio can do. Audio can do so much more. And I had to be honest well, again, I have to say this coming from a public radio background.
I think that, maybe audio is the most important media that we have from a society point of view, because this we need to have a media again so people can understand their and I'm translating from Danish because, you know, I'm actually Danish. Translating the the times that we're living so we understand it. So we we could probably go on later in this interview about AI and what have you. And we could, if it was just like a chat that we were having, we could be fascinated by AI and talk about new things that are going on there and what new features are out there and what have you. But that's not really the the the job of the journalist. The job of a journalist is to put it into some kind of a context. What does that this actually mean for our society?
What does this mean if we we look ahead? What does this you know? So the meaning of things, I think that we have to cherish, and that takes time and money, to be honest, to produce. And going back to cherish, if you have a public national radio station that is actually it being funded, that is so important. And we could go on about, you know, the whole business of podcasting, how you can monetize it, and what have you. And is this the the podcast winter that we're looking into, and, you know, it might be. K. Or you probably heard that expression as well, the podcast winter is really gloom.
[00:11:35] Barry Luijbregts:
I've heard it a lot, but it's, it's a podcast at winter, so I don't really care about it. There you go. Not really
[00:11:43] Nick Dunkerley:
yeah. It's not really a podcast winter. No. As in, you know, people are still enjoying podcast and Exactly. And I agree. Still listening. Yeah. And I and I I think you're absolutely right putting the ad in there, because where I think that's we have to point our attention when it comes to audio that is, on quality, and and the long tail, of things. Now, anyway, I'm I'm just rambling. You probably have a question.
[00:12:15] Barry Luijbregts:
No. No. This is this is, very good. So, I I totally agree with, the storytelling parts, like, from a journalist perspective, for instance. You take people by the hand. You created the the perspective of what you wanna, talk about. Right? So a news thing, some some actuality, and you try to uncover the truth and show people, look. This is what's going on. This is what you need to know now.
[00:12:44] Nick Dunkerley:
Do you think Actually, there's a you have to put a word in there, the the objective truth. Now we can argue all along about what is objectivity. But, what a journalist's job is to try to be objective. Yes. Try to see things from more points of views. That you don't get in a conversation.
[00:13:05] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah.
[00:13:06] Nick Dunkerley:
And we have to bear these things in in mind. We are talking into an echo chamber if we're only listening to to podcasts where people are opinionated.
[00:13:16] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Yeah. No. Definitely. Because everybody has their own, perspective, and then they just take you into that world without the kind of behavior.
[00:13:26] Nick Dunkerley:
Exactly. And the rabbit holes are oh god. This is gonna could be if we go deep with this one. Going down that rabbit hole, that echo chamber is is really, really frightening from a perspective of a society point of view. Now we're not gonna point fingers at anyone, but there are some countries that we can see this divide, just become increasing all the time between 2 parties that are no longer listening to one another. Just add your own country in there to the mix and, you know, make your own societal debate. But not being able to listen to one another, not being able to see 2, sides of a conversation, not being able to accept others' arguments as valid, that that is toxic.
That really is.
[00:14:18] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. And very bad for society at large and for humanity as a whole. So so do you feel that this, the objectivity, if you just look outside of podcasting and just, at, at media, for instance, is this is this objectivity also going away, not only because funding gets, becomes less for, for instance, national, radio and other stations, but also because there are more and more interests behind these stories, and these stories are paid for by and such and so. So do you feel I I feel that's at least the case, that objectivity is is a rare thing nowadays also in journalism.
[00:14:57] Nick Dunkerley:
It is. You're you're absolutely right, and it is all to do with funding. Yeah. And and this is why we we don't I don't think we appreciate it enough in Europe where we, where we have national broadcaster stations still. There are other places that don't have that luxury where it's it's basically all media consumption is down to commercial, media. And there's nothing wrong with commercial media in itself, but they do have an agenda.
[00:15:27] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Yeah. That that's not a good thing. That's why. Not necessarily. No. No. No. But that's why I think perhaps, in podcasting, that is like a a separate thing. And there you have, let's say that the the citizen journalists, everybody can be a journalist. Right? That doesn't mean that you're a good journalist or any good reporter at all, but that does mean that you can take people, into your perspective. And hopefully you try to be objective as well if you report up on anything, if you create a podcast. But I think the good thing about that is that there is so much out there that you can listen to all of the perspectives if you are, as a listener, are objective enough yourself that you can actually find all these things and and listen to all of the sides. Right? So it is still there.
[00:16:16] Nick Dunkerley:
You can do. Yes. It's possible, but with you. That's true. Yeah. Well, and this is the thing about being forced to have someone who has to be objective for you. That is they will actually go out there and seek the different opinions, and they will, you know, they will present you for the different arguments. And once you've been presented for the, you know, the left and the right or the back and the right, what have you, then it could be up to you to go, no. I'm not gonna change my mind, but maybe you will actually change my mind. Or at least you'll have an understanding of what's going on on the other side. You're not just demonizing what's going on.
But if you can choose, and I'm really torn in this one because I love the idea of that anyone can be able to, transmit, which is really what podcasting is. We've given everyone a transmitter, and that is a democratic tool that is absolutely fabulous. Now we should never go back from that. But that said, then anyone can actually say something. And is that necessarily what you want? No. I'm not saying that. But you you, obviously, everyone should be able to actually say something, but it it does get muddled. No one is accountable for what they're saying. And this is the thing that you will find with, you know, public radio stations or television sites. They are actually accountable for what is being broadcast.
[00:17:55] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. And that's a very good point. And then you get all these, well, these, little worlds and these bubbles where people, get sucked into, either way. And that's, that's never a good thing. But it's hard to stay objective. There's so much stuff out there. And nowadays, especially with, like you already said, AI stuff, you know, we need to just talk about it for a little bit. You're gone. There's just so much stuff. Right? So for instance, for this podcast, I use a little AI voice from, 11labs.comore.io. I don't I'm not sure, to say, hey. Welcome to About Podcasting.
Go here and check it out, which is really cool because it sounds absolutely real. Now that's just a voice, and I can make it say anything I want, or I'm sure there's some controls on there. But you can do it with video. You can do it with anything. So it's gonna be so it's already, and it's gonna be more and more difficult to see what is true. And I'm I'm guessing that more and more of extreme content will be out there just to rile people up to, I don't know, put put, the sides against each other to say whatever you want, and this can influence big things like elections.
It can, be very detrimental for society and so on. So we need these objective voices, the real people out there to, you know, tell us what's what's true, which is difficult because what can you believe anymore if if you can't even believe your own ears or eyes?
[00:19:29] Nick Dunkerley:
It's it's a very, very important question. And, I actually think that we might need to, go back to the sources that we trust. Because otherwise, as you were saying, to be honest, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but within the next fortnight, you have absolutely no idea what Yeah. What you're listening to. Is there a person there or not? You have no idea.
[00:19:58] Barry Luijbregts:
No.
[00:20:01] Nick Dunkerley:
And which is, in many way, you know, we shouldn't knock AI because it has huge potential for lifting the lifting us everyone out of, when it comes to the health sector, sector, what have you, he's gonna make huge huge impact on our society in a positive way. Yeah. But at the same time, us from the media as point of view or from the creative point of view, we as you said yourself, we will have no idea what the truth is anymore. So then, obviously, we're gonna come up with some kind of countermeasures. So we will have some kind of watermarking of content and what have you. So and we'll probably, at some point, have a sticker where you can say, I'm a real human, and that kind of thing that you can put on things.
But we're not there at the moment. And whatever, legislation is coming, it's it's always gonna be years too late. In the meantime, what the hell happened to our society? Well, we're gonna find out. We are gonna find out.
[00:21:15] Barry Luijbregts:
Interesting times. That's that's for sure. It is.
[00:21:18] Nick Dunkerley:
And in if we could go the the way that it's it's all doom and gloom, and we're all gonna die, and the the robots are coming. I don't think that's gonna happen. But we will have to adjust to something that we're gonna wake up to something that's completely new, well, if you take a long nap.
[00:21:41] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Well, it's definitely I I find it just very interesting times to be alive. Right? We could also have been alive, I don't know, a couple 100 years ago,
[00:21:51] Nick Dunkerley:
and it might have been, much more boring than this. And smelly. And you would die of in you know, at the age of 35 with bad teeth.
[00:22:02] Barry Luijbregts:
Exactly. So it's good to be alive right now, and we'll see what happens. I'm also positive about the future. And AI obviously helps us in in tooling to make things easier. Right? Yeah.
[00:22:15] Nick Dunkerley:
We we just have to be careful, and we will need to learn to adjust to it. I I I as you, I follow a lot of what's going on on the AI scene. And one of the things that I find really interesting is the the amount of enthusiasm that people have for what's going on. It's like, well, there's this new thing coming out. Woke now actually produced video is absolutely amazing, and it's, like, lifelike. And, you know, this will take over jobs for the and it's like sitting on the branch of a tree just soaring away as quickly as you can while everyone on in the rest of the branch is just going, yeah. It's brilliant. What? No one seems to be the the slice is worried about the, this, but, obviously, that some people are worried about it. But there's there's a lot of enthusiasm.
And, actually, also, when it comes to the podcasting scene, it's like, we just want AI tools. And it's it's not just podcasting, it's also broadcast radio, to be honest. We would just need AI that that can solve all our, problems. We can just lay back, and everything will be sorted out for us. Now sure. But is that necessarily what you want? I I think that for anything to have any kind of value, you have to add just a bit of effort. And we're kind of pulling away from that. We we don't find that we need to put any effort into anything anymore. Everything can just be sold for us. And that seems like a good idea up into a certain point where you're kind of, stepping further and further away from, gravity, so to speak, and just ending up, flows around in space.
That was a bad analogy. Have you I guess everyone's seen the the movie Wall E. Right? Yeah. It's an absolutely amazing movie. And it is really anyone who's interested in AI should really just have a look at Wall E because they are explaining the issue right there. People are just being complacent. They're just sitting in their chairs, and they have everything has been done for them, but they have no purpose anymore. Yeah. They're they're not in touch with anything. And I'm slightly worried that we could get to that point where we just get so enthusiastic about not doing anything that we lose touch with the meaning of purpose.
[00:24:47] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. I think that's probably the the most real thing that could happen and then that could go wrong. And I already thought that when, you know, in in my generation, I didn't grow up with internet, and then we had it when I was a teenager, And then things became so easy, let's say, you could just Google that. You didn't have to remember anything. You could just Google that. Can you remember phone numbers anymore? A couple. From from way back when we had an actual phone. Yeah. The phone number you had as a child. You could probably remember that. Yeah. And of a couple of friends from from that time. But now, you know, there's no need. So Yeah. The the mind also gets trained to not remember, that type of stuff anymore and to not do that work anymore, which is not a good thing. When I think this will obviously become more, like with chat GPT or whatever, you can just look it up, or you can just say, hey, write this for me. I need to write something. Write this for me. No, not in that style. Make it more amusing or whatever.
And so you don't need those skills as well, which I think is frightening.
[00:25:53] Nick Dunkerley:
But, yeah, let's let's just see how it goes. So for instance, in Paul No. No. And is it frightening because what we're saying is, well, yes, we're not just leaving it to AI. Obviously, we'll be editing this. We will have a look at this. We'll look through it and yeah. We've got yeah. May maybe maybe we'll have a look through it. But the thing is that, say for instance, if we just compare it to, to to maps, you could type into, on your maps to just take me to somewhere, and it will it will just follow that map. Yeah. Yeah. You could basically be going anywhere. You have no idea that it's actually gonna take you in the right direction. And if if you have a sense of direction sometimes you do this. Sometimes the maps get gets things wrong, and you go, wait a minute. Why in the hell am I going this way? I should be going, you know, west instead.
And you only can do that if you actually have some prior knowledge. Well, if we, actually, yeah, one of the areas I'm also interested in in is the educational sector, but let's not get into that. But I understand why, teachers are worried about introducing AI. Mhmm. It's it's not that AI in itself is bad, but you you still have to have some base knowledge before you can use these tools. And it's the same with you know, you can create an image. Anyone can create a stunning image now. But is it any good? Is it art? I don't know. It's it it seems like, if an artist used AI, I'm pretty sure that they can make something that is art, that is spectacular, that I would feel for that. Yeah. That make an impression of me. But just saying, make something pretty, and he will do it, definitely, and there's something will come out of it. But does it have any, what's the word we're looking for, essence, any substance?
[00:27:59] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. I and I think that's exactly you, that's exactly it. So when you create something, be it a a podcast, be it an audio story, be it, an image or a picture or painting or whatever you create when you're being creative, I think you're you're channeling something primal that is in connection with nature, with the universe, with whatever you might call it, with the bigger thing that is bigger than us that we're all connected to. And that's how you then instantiate whatever you're making, and that is what we feel when we look at it, when we listen to it, when we consume it. You can feel if it's real or not. And if that essence, like you say, is actually there. And I don't think AI it can it can definitely not do that on its own, but maybe you can use it as a tool. Yeah.
[00:28:50] Nick Dunkerley:
Yeah. But that's the thing. It's an emulation of of contact. I guess it would be like, I just saw a headline today about some young teenage girls having an AI boyfriend. I don't know if you saw that. It's probably nothing new. I'm pretty sure that they've had that in many places in the world already, having AI partners. It would be easier in many ways. Have someone who just agrees with you all the time, say, oh, you look absolutely amazing today, darling. Yeah. But something might be missing. There might be a tiny thing missing there at some point.
[00:29:36] Barry Luijbregts:
The essence of life, is simply missing. And, and, and so we're, we're shooting beyond that. And, so what I was saying for pothome, I'm trying to not interfere with the creation process. I'm just trying to help people with the AI part, with all of the stuff around it, like the stuff that you don't wanna do, like show notes and chapters and all that type of stuff.
[00:29:58] Nick Dunkerley:
But the creation is still your thing, and and that needs to stay like that. Having it as a a a a tool, use it as a tool, that that's great. Just bear in mind that it it is only a tool.
[00:30:14] Barry Luijbregts:
Okay. So from this, let's, pivot into,
[00:30:19] Nick Dunkerley:
into into your tool, Hindi work. Is that necessary?
[00:30:23] Barry Luijbregts:
No. It's have to. We definitely don't have to. But let's, let's talk about it. So how did you get into that, into audio editing and audio quality? Why did you wanna wanna build something like this?
[00:30:36] Nick Dunkerley:
Well, I I I found there was a a need. Now I have to go back a bit. We have to go back to Zambia. Let's imagine that we're now in in Africa. Well, we're in Zambia, and we are actually in a a small town. It's really hot. The set of flies are flying around, and it's a small town called It's it's just by the lake and it's it's really pretty and there's it is a lovely place but they they do not have a lot. And what I was doing there was, I was helping out build a community radio station. And somebody asked me, actually the story behind it, you can always edit this down to about one second. But anyway, the story behind it was, organizations like well, here in Denmark, it's like the NIDA, but otherwise, you'll have, Deutsche Welle. Well, not necessarily Deutsche Welle, but other organizations go into areas to promote different programs. That could be programs on education, on HIV age, or agriculture, that kind of thing. Mhmm. Yep. And the best way, still, not just in African countries, but still, is to actually use audio.
Having a pamphlet is fine, but actually telling a story is much more effective. So what they would typically do with these organizations, they would go into a a region, and then they would use the local radio station, and they would use that to say, well, if you want to improve your harvest next year, maybe you should start planting this way, this way, and this way. So it was storytelling. But in many situations, there wasn't necessarily a radio station in that area. So what they would do then was they they would build 1. Well, at least that was the story. They were building 1. What they really did was they they took a container, a shipping container with equipment in it and placed it in the area, and then they ran up to the highest place that you could find around town, and then they put a transmitter up there or antenna up there. And there you have it, pops your uncle, you have a radio station, and it works.
The problem was that as as long as money was flowing to the project that would typically be a, like, a 2 year project, the radio station would be fine. As soon as the money pulled out, the radio station would die. So the reason why one of these organizations came to me was with the question, why? Why are they dying? Why aren't they using these radio stations? But you know, we gave them them. It's a radio station. They didn't have a radio station. Why don't they use them? So I went out and I actually drove around in the country and that was absolutely amazing. I would love to do that again. If there's anyone out there who needs me for that. Driving just driving around in a 4 by 4 in the dirt roads with potholes on it and Mhmm. Seemingly hot and just visiting the nicest people you can imagine. And them just being all enthusiastic about the community radios. Anyway, back to my radio station.
I had a look at what everything, everything was going on. And also what was going on with these radio stations that were being closed. And I said, well, the issue is that you're building the wrong radio stations. And these organization was like, what do you mean a radio station is a radio station? You know, it's you put some there's audio that comes out. How difficult can it be? Yeah. And it's like, well, no, actually not. Because what you're building is a a music radio station. It's a basically a DJ setup with a transmitter on the roof.
So you've got a couple of CD players, and you've got a microphone, and there you go. It it is radio. Technically speaking, it is radio. It's bit like what I was saying before, you know, 2 people having conversation, that is also talk radio, but it's not the end of that. So I said, yes. Sure. It's a radio station. Fair enough. But they don't care. No one cares about music radio. They care about stories. The way that they communicate, in in internally in these villages is that they have, typically, they will have these town meetings, and they will meet under a kind of a a gazebo. So you have the the town elders sitting in in a circle underneath this gazebo, and they will be debating. And around them, outside of them, you have the rest of the village standing around them in a circle, and basically just pitching in. So, no. That's not true. Whatever. And so they will everyone will be pitching in. The town's elders will be sitting in the middle.
And then they will sort things out, and they will storytelling is the oral storytelling is huge part of of this communication, so if you wanna tell a story. So I found that really, really interesting. And also, just being around people, especially the elders. I was, you know, often I I just pick people up in the car just, because they were just walking, like, for a 100 miles or something like that to get to the shops as I get in the car. And for that they just told me stories. And they could tell amazing stories, and everyone had these amazing stories, and they were just so good at it. So I thought, well, what we need to do is we need to build a radio station that actually supports talk radio.
Not just having someone chatting, but actually supporting storytelling. And my own background from a national broadcasting was exactly that, you know, this is what we did. When we do we're doing features and and and what have you. It was all about the story. So, I said, well, let me just pencil this out. This is what I have in mind. We need to, you know, build this building. It needs to have 2 studios. We have to have a a station manager. There has to be some desks out here where they can work. And on top of that, I want to have a library that has Internet connection.
And they're like, what the hell are you on about? You know, we have a budget for a container. Yeah. Well, I don't know. This is what we need. Why the hell do you need a library? There's well, no one's gonna pop into a radio station, are they? We're not gonna just gonna walk out from the street and say, I've got a brilliant story. Yeah. Yeah. You you need to have a place where people can actually meet and talk about other stuff, and they can go on the Internet and what have you, because you'll be the only Internet spot in town. And I'm like, never thought of that. No. Well, there you go. So we went, along and well, yeah, that's what we did. It was so much fun. Anyway, back to why I forgot the point of the story here, which was software.
Why did we, start the company? As I was, doing this, and this was a lot of fun, I was actually one evening sitting in a small chalet and looking at all the open source software that was out there, like, Aurora and Audacity and what happened, and thinking, this is what we need. I'm I'm gonna give them some computers. We'll have Ubuntu on the computers, and they'll have one of these open source programs, probably Audacity. Yeah. And then they started working with it. Now I'm a sound engineer. Didn't, you know, mention that. I'm a sound engineer. And I was well, actually, not with Audacity. That wasn't too bad, but I would try it out with Aurora as well. I was so frustrated. I could not get the bloody thing to work. And I'm not saying it's a fault. It was open source software, and I was sitting in the middle of nowhere, but I was struggling, as they would say. So I'm struggling.
So, and then suddenly it occurred to me, I have to see this through the eyes of a storyteller. They have to sit down in front of this piece of software, and they have to start telling a story. I was like, that's never gonna happen. This is never gonna work. This is this is horrible. You know? We we we there's a bottleneck here, we can't get over. And, you know, there was just no way. And I asked around. I asked some of my colleagues. A friend of mine, came down to visit, and he's a he's a sound guy as as well. And we were talking about this, and I said, have you heard of any software that is more simple than this? It has to we have to uphold broadcast standards, but it has to be easier to use. And I said, no.
Why would anyone do that? There's absolutely no market for that whatsoever. And and then the power went out, and we had a drink. And, as we were sitting there in the dark, I said, wait a minute. You do a bit of, coding, don't you? And he was like, yeah. Where are you going with this? So here we are. And it's the 2 of us that once was sitting there in the dark, chatting about how we could save the world in our own little way. And, yeah, we came up with this one.
[00:40:08] Barry Luijbregts:
Excellent. Yeah. That that's that's a really good story. So I hope that everybody, close their eyes and also imagine it along with the scenery because it's really vivid. But, yeah, that that's very important to have a, very user friendly software that people can just use, without having to be a sound engineer or or a technical expert or like that, which you see a lot,
[00:40:33] Nick Dunkerley:
of that especially There is. But it's not a fault of the other software, If you are into engineering, for instance, if you're a musician, you'll use Appleton or Logic or something like that because you understand the interface. You understand that need. If you're doing, movies, you'll definitely use, Pro Tools if you're gonna do that kind of thing because you understand it. And the reason you understand it is basically nothing much has happened since the late nineties when we went from analog to digital. You were around at the time. Yeah. So what we did when we went to digital was we had a look at the analog world and said, well, let's just do that in a computer.
It's gonna be brilliant. So if you've ever been into a, a music studio, or maybe you've never actually been there, but in your mind's eye, you've definitely been there. There's this huge sound desk in front of you. There's a really comfy chair where some bloke called Barry is sitting, and then he's got, like, racks of, of, of gear all around him. And, then there's a small window, and you can look into the other side where the musicians will be playing as we've all got that image in your head. That's fine. So we basically we we we we took that, and we sketched it down on the computer and said, here you go. That hey. There's your program. So if you look at Pro Tools, for instance, that's basically just a one to one replication of a studio, a music studio. It's brilliant if you're the one that's actually in the chair who understands it.
The problem was that is Barry the wrong name to use in this No. No. It's totally fine. Scenario. Barry then, then came a a time when actually, Barry, who was a sound engineer, he not only did music, he also did radio production. And, typically, at the time when we were doing radio production, he will be sitting together with Laura, who is a journalist, and she would she loved radio. She absolutely loved it. She loved going out there doing interviews. She would do the script and everything. And Barry and Laura were getting into a studio together, and they would create art. Together, they made something that was way bigger than any of them. Not one of them could have done this on their own.
They made something beautiful, And I was a part of that. And to be honest, it still gives me shivers down my spine when I think about it, because it was an amazing experience to be part of something that is larger than yourself. If you've ever been in a band, for instance, you know that feeling. You can play the guitar all you like, but you never get the feeling of playing that one chord on the guitar and the rest of the band just comes in at the same time. That's that's amazing. If you've never tried it, go ahead and try it. Anyway, so back to the studio, back to the music studio.
So what happened in the nineties was that from a management point of view, people found that it was way cheaper to have Laura sit at the the controls herself and do her own editing, and Barry was fired. So the music studio, let's go back to the music studio, was now empty. In comes Laura and sits down in the chair. So she looks around at the sound desk and all the the effects and what have you, and she is petrified. And someone closes the door. And she's just there alone in the dark looking at the sound desk going, what the hell am I gonna do now?
So that meant she went from being really enthusiastic about audio and storytelling and what she could do with it. And she could in her mind's eye, she would just go, okay. Let's start this story out with the the waves are coming in, and I'll come over in with a a voice over. And then we'll have the first part of the interview, and we'll have some music slowly building up from under the all that died instantly. In that second, she sat down in front of the sound disc. She had no idea how to do it herself. Yeah. Too complicated.
Way too complicated. Yeah. So what we've been trying to do, basically, is say to Laura, you're good. You're fine. Don't worry about it. Whatever you have in your head, you can get it out.
[00:45:07] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. And that's great. I've been using it myself as well, Hindenburg. Oh, really? Okay. I've I've used many, many tools. I've also used, the Adobe tool, which to me is not intuitive, but mainly because I don't come from that world of, of that type of controls and UX. So I'm always looking for where's the button for this. But but I like it. It's simple. Hindenburg's simple simple, easy to use, and it does what I needed to do. So, what would you say is the main differentiator besides the easy, UX, the usability for Hindenburg to the others. Right? Because there are others out there as well.
[00:45:52] Nick Dunkerley:
But that's the thing. No. There isn't. There there seriously, there isn't because the differentiator is, okay, if you only look at it this way, they're all doors. Mhmm. They can all record audio. You can all edit audio. They all do the same thing. True. In that case, they are all the same. But as you were pointing out, it's it's the UX that's different. We've made this specifically for Laura. She needs to be a we're we're addressing her issues. So for instance, we know what her output is gonna be. When we go in, you've since you've played around with it, you know that we have, like, automated levels and that kind of thing. And, you know, everyone nowadays is talking about automated levels, but we were actually the first to introduce it. We were the first to talk about loudness. It's not because loudness is in itself interesting or automated levels for that point is is interesting.
The reason why we have this technology is because we knew that Laura had no idea how to set a level. For instance, if you if you go back to broadcast radio, we had a handbook in the day that we gave to to freelance journalists and said, in in the handbook, it said, if you're doing an interview, your, levels should peak at minus 9 on a QPPM meter. Right. Yeah. So now do you know? Loa has no idea what the hell we had just said. It was just an absolutely meaningless sentence. But if you drag any piece of narration into Hindenburg you try it next time you have a look. Have the automated levels do their little thing. Have a look at the QPPM meter, which is, you know, just that meter you see at the bottom. But the reason it's a QPPM meter is because that is the same meter you will find in any broadcast radio station or television station in the entire Europe.
That's why we had exactly that meter, not just any odd meter. It had to be the right meter for the right job. Okay. So she will be able to see, okay. It's true. It's actually peaking at minus 9 on my QPPM meter. So someone is gonna be very happy when I'm done with this. Yeah. And I don't need to worry about it. And the same thing, you could, if you add some music to it, you could say, well, music is music. No. It's not. It's is is this a question of how compressed is it? Is it, is it music produced, like, yesterday, then it will be compressed the hell out of it? Is it produced in the nineties, Less compression. Is it classical music? No compression whatsoever.
Your dynamic range is gonna be all over the place, which means you have to set your levels accordingly. So and you can't even use a rule of thumb. You you might get, well, it's music, set it to minus 15 on a QPPA meter, and you're done. Yes. If it was a specific kind of pop music, if you did the same with classical music, you won't be able to hear anything except the, you know, the horn section.
[00:48:53] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Exactly. And so
[00:48:56] Nick Dunkerley:
just to say that we can do that because we know what your output is gonna be. You are gonna be producing some kind of radio segment, and it has to have this kind of overall quality. Can you imagine that kind of arrogance in another program like Pro Tools or Ableton? Will they go, you know what? Your drums should be higher. People will be furious. You know? We can lower the bass for you because, you know, it might be better. No one would go along with that because these people know what they want. So they need to be able to tweak and adjust and fiddle and play around and what have you. Our users hate that kind of thing. They just want to be able to think of the story.
So they need to throw stuff in there and focus. And and that said, by the way, another thing, when people are forced to do both storytelling and engineering, that's next to impossible. You can't think of 2 things at the same time. You can either focus on on the story or you can focus on mixing. You can't do both. Yeah. I've never met anyone who can do both at the same time. You can go back and forth, then you can do oh, I'll do my mix, then I'll go back and listen to, does this story work? And then I'll do more you know? So you're constantly shifting gears. The issue was when they were working in other tools, they were being constantly stopped by other things that they had to focus on.
So for instance, I have to do a recording, then you so you try to add some some audio. Then you ask, well, is this stereo mono? It's like, I I don't know. Is and constantly, they will be faced with, questions that they didn't know the answer to, that they had to go out and find answers to. And here, they can just focus on their main thing. So, okay, I've got an interview. Let's just drag it in. Let's start finding sound bites. Great. I'll find some sound bites. And then I need to be able to organize my sound bites. Now we just stop there for a second. We have a clipboard, for instance, where you can just organize your sound bites. You just take a sound bite, which is, which you you like. You have no idea when you're gonna use it, but, you know, you will use it at some point. Then you just put it into your clipboard saying, alright. I'll get back to you later.
No other door has that. You could argue that, well, Pro Tools has this kind of clip thing where you can see every single clip that you've done. Sure. But it's that's not it's not the same thing. It's it's not the same use case. You can't organize it. With us, you can rename them. You can always organize them in groups. You can have favorites that you use from story to story. We even have a sound library in there where because, you know, why would you use that in another tool? Who needs, I don't know, a city sound or waves or something like that, when you're doing your music production? It doesn't make any sense. But for us, it makes perfect sense.
So it it's a question of having the the right tool for the right job. Yes. You could argue, as you were saying, it's an old you know, it's a door. They're all doors, but they're really not.
[00:52:21] Barry Luijbregts:
No. In my head, I was comparing it to, other tools like, Descript, for instance. But, the the script or descript or whatever you, you call it, that is much broader. They don't have such a clear, my assumption here, view of who their users are. Their users, anybody that creates anything, video, audio, whatever. I think they're trying to go for everyone,
[00:52:49] Nick Dunkerley:
within the funnel, which is, which which is fine. They they started out by targeting, audio podcast, but it very soon became clear that they were going for the video market. It's a much larger market in the video market. And I fully understand that from an economic point of view. They had a lot of money that I had to recoup. Now let's be honest, podcasters are dirt poor. You know, they they haven't done that. Yeah. That's true. This is not an area where you drive around in in, like, in limousines and Ferraris. So, for them to be able to make that kind of large scale business, they had to go after the large scale market, which was definitely the video market.
[00:53:33] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. So so it's very good that you, you know, you know exactly who you're creating this for, and it's very targeted use case, which is great. Very niche. Yeah. That's why my kids are very skinny. So in this niche market, are you still
[00:53:49] Nick Dunkerley:
actively creating new features? Do you find a need for new things that are not there yet in the product? Yeah. It it it moves all the time, which is which is amazing. It's like a a moving target. One of the things that are interesting is we started this, like, 15 years ago. And, you know, you should we should have this conversation another 15 years, and you can look at your business and say, well, when I started out Yes. This was the need, and I had all the features that I needed. Yes. Now when we started out, we were actually, again, trying to use this for for for radio journalists. But actually, to go back to the Africa, the original idea was make it for rural reporters in developing countries and just give it to them for free. As it turned out, that was a horrible business idea.
So, as we started developing it, I am I I was back in Denmark. That's another long story. But, then I had some of my old colleagues from the National Broadcasting. I sent it to them. I said, could you, when you find, you know, 5, 10 minutes, just try this out? And it was like the early days. It was in the alpha. It was not even in beta yet. And very, very limited amount of features at the time. We'd only been working on it for a couple of months, and you as a developer know how far you can get within a couple of months. Yeah. Not that far. It will break constant. Yeah.
Anyway, so and we heard nothing back. There was radio silence. Now what was happening? Roll it up. So at some point, I just said, I have to Praveen and I, who is the the the cofounder, and I, we were just sitting there, really just in his living room. We didn't have any office. It was just him and I on each side of the table, and I said I have to call them and hear what's what's going on. They probably just hate it. That's probably why we've haven't heard back. So I called one of my old colleagues. I said, well, time to try it out. He said, yeah. It's really buggy.
I said, yeah. Sure. Yeah. Of course. We know we we know it's buggy, but yeah. Could you make it less buggy? So why are you going on about buggy? Well, I wanna talk about features. No. You need to make it less buggy because we're using it every single day.
[00:56:15] Barry Luijbregts:
Okay. They were using it in production?
[00:56:17] Nick Dunkerley:
Yes. And I was I just put the phone down, and it looks at my it says, shit. We have a problem. It's a good problem to have. It's a good problem to have because at the same time, we just realized we also had a business model. Yeah.
[00:56:33] Barry Luijbregts:
Okay. So how did that evolve into the needs that, your users have now?
[00:56:39] Nick Dunkerley:
Because the whole business has just been, you know, up and down and all over the place. We started out making this for journalists that were working at broadcast radio stations. They had very specific, needs, but they also had a very specific knowledge. We're going back to the knowledge that you come with. They understood what it was they would what they wanted to do. They understood that, the use of a clipboard because they understood that, you know, this is the way that we usually work. We do interviews. We find sound bites. They understood that they needed more than one trap because, you know, obviously, they wanted to mix different sounds together. They understood everything that was in the the UI at the time. But then as time went on, suddenly, podcasting became a thing.
And, you know, I love the idea going back to I love the idea of anyone should be able to, express themselves. But what we found was the issue was they they didn't have that knowledge with them about what the end product should be. Mhmm. So they might have been listening to other podcasts, which typically at that time would then have been either national radio or you'd be listening to stuff like This American Life or Radiolab or these things were the the podcast that came out at the beginning, and later on serial came along. And people were listening to these things and said, yeah. Okay. I wanna do a pod I can do a podcast. It's it's suddenly it's been given to me that I can do that as well. And especially this American life, is is one of example, I was doing a speech in, in Dublin, at a time.
And there there was this, we we were talking about microphones, and there was this guy who was holding this omnidirectional, this very directional, microphone, this long directional microphone, and this really odd angle where he's holding it down at his hip and he was pointing up at me with this. And I was like, what are you doing? Why are you holding your microphone like I said, well, this is what Ira Glass does. Yeah. But he's he's been around for the, like, 40 years of doing broadcast. Right? And it occurred to me that many people were having these misconceptions of how, what radio production was. Mhmm. Yeah. So for instance, again, This American Life, if you never listened to it, it's typically an interview podcast where someone's doing an interview. So I would ask questions, and they will string them together with different stories, but basically just interviews.
And if you just listen to it, it's very fluent. It's just, you know, flows along. And you can say, I can do that. I'll I'll just record someone, and I'll just, you know, cut into the beginning, add to the end, and then I have done my podcast. Not knowing that this America this American Life team had probably spent 6 weeks on this one interview or just this one show. And no one really understood how the sausage was made, when it came to radio production. And if they knew, they would probably never get into it because, to be honest, it's not easy. It might seem easy, but it's not. And, you were saying before about our 80s, just because I said the word easy, and it really triggers me.
What we're doing is not meant to be easy. It's really not the point. You again, it's misunderstanding. Because if you you're under the impression that creating stories is easy, then this misconception, it's not. It it what we're doing is making you more focused. We can make it an effortless experience where you can focus on what you want to do. We want to be take away the distractions. But saying it's easy, we have to be careful with that one because you have to apply effort. Going back to what we're talking about before, you have to apply some effort for anything to have any quality whatsoever.
We're just trying to be more focused. Now I've got my point in my story.
[01:01:10] Barry Luijbregts:
No. I I totally agree. The creation part is very difficult, and it should be because, you want to create some value. Right? And creating value is difficult. But your tool is is making it easier to make it nice. Right? Say more effortless. More effortless. There you go. Okay.
[01:01:29] Nick Dunkerley:
Well, let let us put it this way. I I was just thinking of this the other day. I'd love watching, YouTube clips of car programs, that kind of thing. I'm probably never gonna get a decent car, but here we go. I just so I just watch other people driving around in nice cars. And you can say all cars fulfill the same purpose. You can go down to to the shops and back again in any car. Mhmm. Yeah. It's no difference whatsoever. But it's all depending on how you want to feel about something, the experience of doing something. And when it comes to a Rolls Royce, for instance, you can go down to the shops just as you could in any in Ico or whatever.
But it's the the the feeling of effortlessness, of just getting in there. It just what would they typically say? Just woofs you along. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. And it's kind of that experience that I'm hoping to give as we design it, but also what we the feedback that we get from our users. I was I was talking to some students, at some point that were using it at a university, and they, they had no idea who I was. So they just came out from a, a class where they were doing radio production. So I just asked them, so, so how was the class? It was it was absolutely amazing. You know, radio producing radio is just so much fun, and it's just so easy.
And and I was like, no. It's not. What you just experienced was us making it an effortless experience for you to be able to get into an area that is otherwise really difficult to penetrate. And that was the whole idea of going back to Africa, getting rid of that bottleneck, getting rid of that, that that I called it at the time a technical divide. Right? I might be the only person in the world using that expression, but you get the idea, the technical divide between you and your audience. That was what we were trying to eliminate. So, yes, make it accessible, make it approachable, make it a effortless experience. That is what we're trying to do. But easy, that just sounds like my first Sony. It's like, yeah, you can start out with the cheap and easy one, and then you can move over to a professional tool later on. This is the professional tool. This is where you will end up. If you're if you've got twinkling blue eyes right now thinking, I fucking love audio production. I just get thrills.
I just want to be a part of that. This is where you're gonna end up. This is where all the big guys are. They're working on it right now. But what we're doing is we're making it approachable so you can start if you're, you know, if you're a child in school and you're starting out your podcast production, you can start here, but you'll be working with the same tools that the professionals at NPR or BBC or what have you and Doctor, especially Doctor. All all the features that are produced there are being produced with our tool. It's really not because it's easy.
[01:04:49] Barry Luijbregts:
Yeah. Alright. Well, we won't use that word anymore. Effortless effortless. I like effortless. It's a lovely word, isn't it? It is. It's very and and it, yeah, it hits home. Okay. So we've we've talked about lots of things.
[01:05:04] Nick Dunkerley:
And Oh, good. We talked for a long time. Yeah.
[01:05:07] Barry Luijbregts:
I feel like, we can talk, a lot longer, but let's, I I want to respect, the time of our listeners as well. So, perhaps you can point our listeners to where they should go if they want to try out Hindenburg.
[01:05:23] Nick Dunkerley:
Yes. If they go to our website at hintenburg.com, they can just click on the trial button. They'll get their own 30 day trial, and, yeah, play around with it. It's it's got all the features in there.
[01:05:36] Barry Luijbregts:
There you go. And, obviously, that will also be in the show notes as well if you just forgot what, what Nick just said. Okay. Thank you very much for for talking with me today. Well, thank you. It was fun.
[01:05:50] AI voice:
Thanks for tuning into the show. For more episodes, go to about podcasting dot show, and remember to host your podcast on podhome.fm, the most modern podcast hosting platform.
Interview with Nick Dunkerley of Hindenburg
The Magic of Audio and Storytelling
Nick's Background in Radio
The Role of Objectivity in Journalism
Challenges of Objectivity in Modern Media
Impact of AI on Media and Society
Hindenburg: Origin and Development
User Experience and Differentiation of Hindenburg
Evolving Needs of Users and Podcasting Trends
Conclusion and Trial Information
